Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

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charcoalwilly
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Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by charcoalwilly » October 21st, 2020, 9:58 pm

Couple of quick noob questions that have been vexing me regarding how to skin a sub-frame. Let’s say you are welding 10 gauge sheet panels on top of a sub-frame built with 1x1x11 gauge square tube.

1. Does the open corner weld of the sheet panels create a 3-way fuse between the two pieces of sheet and the sub-frame? (See the ‘A” weld in attached picture). If yes, does the fuse with sub-frame occur because of the filler metal or because of the heat?

2. Is 10 gauge sheet thick enough for a solid open corner weld with the sub-frame? How is this done with even thinner 14 sheet for insulated smokers?? Any tips would be appreciated.

3. Are you also stitching fillet welds on the inside where the sheet panels meet the sub-frame? (see welds ‘B’ and ‘C’ in the picture)

Many thanks
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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by Cole Leffert » October 22nd, 2020, 9:06 am

The easiest thing to do would be to gap the two pieces of 10 gauge so you can see the tubing behind it. Then when you weld you will be melting all three pieces of steel and fusing all of them. If you were using tig or oxy-fuel welding you could do it with out any filler metal and not build up the corner so much.

I would stitch weld in the b and c locations.



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by charcoalwilly » October 22nd, 2020, 9:20 am

Cole Leffert wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 9:06 am
The easiest thing to do would be to gap the two pieces of 10 gauge so you can see the tubing behind it. Then when you weld you will be melting all three pieces of steel and fusing all of them. If you were using tig or oxy-fuel welding you could do it with out any filler metal and not build up the corner so much.

I would stitch weld in the b and c locations.
Thanks Cole. To gap the two pieces of 10 gauge, would you have to size them a hair shorter? By how much? An 1/8” or so shorter for each piece?



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by Cole Leffert » October 22nd, 2020, 9:33 am

A lot of it has to do with the type of welder you are using and your experience. The best thing to do would be to mock up several practice welds. Get some scrap pieces of the tubing and plate and gap them differently and see what works best for you.



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by Big T » October 22nd, 2020, 5:51 pm

:yth:


Measure Twice.....Cut Three Times.

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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by charcoalwilly » October 22nd, 2020, 7:44 pm

Thanks Cole and Big T. But just to clarify, should I be trying to fuse the three together with the gap? Or is it optional?

Is this 3-way fuse the standard way of skinning an insulated sub-frame?

Also, out of curiosity, is it easier to weld an open corner of two 10 gauge sheets with or without a sub-frame underneath?



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by Cole Leffert » October 22nd, 2020, 9:20 pm

If you are putting on the skin last then you would not be able to stitch the inside like you were talking earlier. Then you would want to hit the frame. Fusing all three together would be ideal. It would be easier with the frame already there, it would draw some of the heat and you would be less likely to blow through due to, to much heat.



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by tinspark » October 22nd, 2020, 11:11 pm

Really no reason to stitch weld the inside. In fact you will likely get a slight dimple from the heat input and stress as it cools which will be more visible on the exposed 10 gauge, especially after paint. If it were my build I would forego it IMO and experience, and do your open gap tube tie in method. Not too much gap though, especially if you are planning on finishing out the weld. Also the 1' tube may want to bow (banana) some, as it cools. I would plan on skip welding it or switch to 2" tube


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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by hogaboomer » October 23rd, 2020, 9:00 am

Corner joint on 10 gauge steel is not going to be easy, for a new welder. Adding a gap makes it even more difficult. If I was doing it, I would butt them up tight and put a few tacks on the inside to hold it to the frame. That gap is likely going to give you trouble. What are you welding with? Thin metal is tough to weld.



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by hogaboomer » October 23rd, 2020, 9:28 pm

On second thought, if your gap is tight against the frame, you should be OK. Be kind of like making a butt weld with a backing plate.



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by charcoalwilly » October 29th, 2020, 9:20 pm

tinspark wrote:
October 22nd, 2020, 11:11 pm
Really no reason to stitch weld the inside. In fact you will likely get a slight dimple from the heat input and stress as it cools which will be more visible on the exposed 10 gauge, especially after paint. If it were my build I would forego it IMO and experience, and do your open gap tube tie in method. Not too much gap though, especially if you are planning on finishing out the weld. Also the 1' tube may want to bow (banana) some, as it cools. I would plan on skip welding it or switch to 2" tube
Didn't even think about the 1" tube going warping. Got me thinking about beefing up to 3/16 angle instead.
hogaboomer wrote:
October 23rd, 2020, 9:00 am
Corner joint on 10 gauge steel is not going to be easy, for a new welder. Adding a gap makes it even more difficult. If I was doing it, I would butt them up tight and put a few tacks on the inside to hold it to the frame. That gap is likely going to give you trouble. What are you welding with? Thin metal is tough to weld.
My plans are to weld with MM211 if I can finally get 220v installed in my garage. Sounds like I should probably bump up panels to 3/16 instead of 10 gauge. Now I am starting to understand yet another reason why smokers get so heavy :D



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by JKalchik » October 30th, 2020, 9:43 am

charcoalwilly wrote:
October 29th, 2020, 9:20 pm
Sounds like I should probably bump up panels to 3/16 instead of 10 gauge. Now I am starting to understand yet another reason why smokers get so heavy :D
Uh..... I skinned my double pan GF in 1/8" sheet, and I wouldn't go any thicker. It's awfully heavy, and there's very little reason to go that thick, really. It just has to be enough (on a GF) to hold the insulation in place.

A MM211 on 240v should be awfully nice on everything, including down to 10 gauge. I built my with an ancient Miller 200 transformer.


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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by Dirtytires » October 30th, 2020, 10:55 am

Before you get worried and over think this whole thing, you might want to pull out the welder and do some practice joints. Tho warping Can definitely occur in any weld, you are able to minimize it by keeping heat build-up in the joints at a reasonable level. Properly design your joint, tack everything first and stitch weld while allowing time for everything to cool off and you will be fine. Most warping is user-caused so take your time, allow everything to cool and you will be just fine.



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Re: Does open corner weld fuse with sub-frame?

Post by Cole Leffert » October 30th, 2020, 11:25 am

:yth:



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